HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 mounts, movement and speed skills

Go down 
AuthorMessage
cam
Engineer
avatar

Posts : 68
Join date : 2010-01-13
Age : 42
Location : saskatoon

PostSubject: mounts, movement and speed skills   Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:44 am

It has been pointed out that there is room for abuse in the rules for mounts, after my recent escapades with my two 3 wound mounted hero's. Although i dont know that this would be a problem if i had not ended up with 3 wounds on both of them, i do recognize it is an issue, at least in scenarios where you need to secure and move treasure etc. So as the offending player i would like to propose some changes to the rules for mounts, and other models/skills that allow players to abuse the additional movement abilities.

First off i would suggest that the speed skills not be available to mounted models. Jump up on a horse... scale sheer surfaces? The only one that makes any sense is dodge, but even that is pushing it. I would like to see the whole table abolished for models that are mounted (no exceptions). It is pretty hard to be fast(speedy) when you are mounted on a 800 pound warmorse, that would most likely demand most of your attention just to control in the heat of battle, not to mention that you are also trying to fight in the melee yourself. However, if a model has speed skills they should still be allowed to use them when on foot.

Secondly there is allot of room for warbands to use the increased speed of mounts (and other units with movement bonuses) to dominate the scenarios where you must capture and move heavy objectives. In games where there are heavy or cumbersome objects to be moved (ie. can only be moved at walking speed) i propose the following:

1. No model or group of models can use any type of movement bonuses when carrying objectives. This includes sprint, leap, and any magical effects. Essentially a warrior is confined to the base movement allowance. Where provided for in the rules, two models can still carry an objective at their base run speed.
2. An objective is not a part of a unit, and as such spells that conceal a model cannot be used when objectives are being carried. Opposing warriors can always see a model that is carrying an objective. This could also be worded to say that the item is too heavy to keep the spell active or whatever...
3. A mounted warrior can never run with an objective as it takes too much work to keep the treasure stable. Also it is too cumbersome for two mounted warriors to combine their strength to move the item at a run.

I would like to note that these rules should not apply to smaller items that are easily carried (and do not have special rules saying that you cannot run with them). For example wyrdstone hunt.

Let me know what you guys think. I already know that Stash is going to protest that dodge should be allowed on mounts, but i will respond by pointing to my above comments.
What say you Shadowlord!?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://wyrdones.forumotion.com
Veyure
Warrior
avatar

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-01-29
Age : 33
Location : Saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:40 am

can anyone buy a horse or does it have to be in your list like other gear?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:04 am

The rulebook states that only Humans can purchase horses. Stash, of course, Loopholes this to buy a horse for his mutant in a possessed warband.

Everything Cam mentions above seems very reasonable. The item carrying stuff should hopefully balance. NO SKILLS transfer to mounts whatsoever. That's plain silly if anyone's been doing that.

I'm honestly a little taken aback by whats occuring. Ive probably played in ten mordheim leagues and only seen 2 horses in about 4 yrs of leaguing (some of those leagues had 20 people!). First league back and we're at 4 purchased already. Is there something I'm missing? If it gets crazy, we'll have to start using the optional riding mounts rules, so you actually have to take specific skills to ride or you'll fall off.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
cam
Engineer
avatar

Posts : 68
Join date : 2010-01-13
Age : 42
Location : saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:45 am

At first i thought it was a good way to keep up with my dogs. Then i relaized that only having 12 guys max in my warband meant that something like horses could fill the void. Perhaps i should return that box of horsemen i bought, i dont like the direction this is going.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://wyrdones.forumotion.com
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:07 pm

I forgot to mention. The note on carrying smaller items with mounts. I agree no penalties. But what do people think about having to dismount to pick up such smalll objects?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:15 pm

cam wrote:
At first i thought it was a good way to keep up with my dogs. Then i relaized that only having 12 guys max in my warband meant that something like horses could fill the void. Perhaps i should return that box of horsemen i bought, i dont like the direction this is going.

Yes witch hunters have a disadvantage of less numbers but make up with thier options. A hunters warband will always be better equipped. They can give shooting weapons to all their heros (who can, with some experience, become very effective with them), have a spell caster, scary as heck henchmen (flaggellants), and cheap effective filler when numbers are low and $'s hard to come by (dogs). I know where your coming from, with small numbers having to face large warbands, but witch hunters are considered an 'elite' less number but more effective group. I hope this changes your opinion of a 'void'.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Veyure
Warrior
avatar

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-01-29
Age : 33
Location : Saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:20 pm

I think dismounting to pick up small things is a likely occurence. Mounts are not that bad. I was thinking of getting one for my priest since he has a smashed leg and cant run anymore. he has 3 wounds can give himself +2 strength and is pretty good in CC so getting him there faster would be a good thing i think.

That and ostlanders are woodsmen-like people and horses i think would fit ok (as long as they arent too drunk to stay on)

What are horses cost anyway?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:30 pm

40gc Rare 8 for reg
80gc Rare 11(?) for war

By all means I'm not saying "hey, no horses." I definately think they have they're place.

And Cam, I don't want you to think I'm picking on you. Like I said, I'm a little taken back by the amount of horsing going on. I'll pick on Stash way before I pick on you. Horses in a possessed warband...sheeesh, how are skitish horses getting along with those mutated, and demonically possessed creatures? Pretty good?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
cam
Engineer
avatar

Posts : 68
Join date : 2010-01-13
Age : 42
Location : saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:15 pm

I dont have any ill will about any of this, i realize that the horse thing is something that you have not run into before. I was just looking for things that i could put gold into and get the most return out of.
Again, i am just wondering how this all effects the beastman warband as well. If i remember right, the league where stash played them he was pretty damn quick.

Whatever you guys want to do is fine, but i will argue in the interest of being certain the right decision is made. I know that the warband i have put together is pretty stupid right now. In my defence though, it is largely due to ALLOT of very good luck.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://wyrdones.forumotion.com
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:56 pm

cam wrote:
, i am just wondering how this all effects the beastman warband as well. If i remember right, the league where stash played them he was pretty damn quick.


Beastmen are fast, they have movement 5 and a half-horse type dude at 8 (i think). To counter speed and good hth, they cannot shoot and have terrible leadership. (unless the leader gets the re-roll route test skill, which he needs)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Stash
Youngblood


Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-01-28

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:02 pm

gluvzer wrote:
The rulebook states that only Humans can purchase horses. Stash, of course, Loopholes this to buy a horse for his mutant in a possessed warband.

Everything Cam mentions above seems very reasonable. The item carrying stuff should hopefully balance. NO SKILLS transfer to mounts whatsoever. That's plain silly if anyone's been doing that.

I'm honestly a little taken aback by whats occuring. Ive probably played in ten mordheim leagues and only seen 2 horses in about 4 yrs of leaguing (some of those leagues had 20 people!). First league back and we're at 4 purchased already. Is there something I'm missing? If it gets crazy, we'll have to start using the optional riding mounts rules, so you actually have to take specific skills to ride or you'll fall off.

No loop hole. Humans = witch hunters, flagellants, dregs, warlocks, pitfighters, mercenaries, Darksouls, Mutants, Bretheren, etc p121 Mordheim rulebook. The item restrictions to humans, skaven etc are obviously not referring to warbands since there are no "warrior-Priest" or "human" warbands.

I think we also have to go a bit further with making some rules with mounts. I suggest that a knocked down result would knock him off of his mount (which would fix the jump up issue and others).

Also a list of house rules should be made. Mike thinks he can have his cake an eat it too, by hitting on a 1+ with high BS but 1+ armour saves always failing on a roll of a 1. The rules as they stand is there is no such think as an automatic fail for hitting with shooting attacks or making armour saves.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Smackman
Youngblood
avatar

Posts : 40
Join date : 2010-02-12

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:23 pm

I think there should be no 1+ anything, but that's probably just the 40k in my veins boiling out. Wink
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:28 pm

I can't check right now, but didn't they cover automatic fail in the FAQ, if not I agree, a roll of one should always fail. But BS should help with the modifiers of course.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Stash
Youngblood


Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-01-28

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:45 pm

gluvzer wrote:
I can't check right now, but didn't they cover automatic fail in the FAQ, if not I agree, a roll of one should always fail. But BS should help with the modifiers of course.

There wont be anything in the FAQ because it is intended to work that way. It wasnt until 6th edition fantasy that "always fail on a 1" came into play, or 3rd edition 40k which only listed bs 5, 6, 7,... to hit on a 2+ as described by a chart.

I am all for going with this or a house rule, just nice not to get screwed over by it in the middle of a game.

Personally I dont think there needs to be a house rule, since nothing needs fixing (yet). No need to penalize a hero who keeps getting a point of BS instead of anything else, or a really expensive armour save(80 horse, 80 barding, 50 heavy armour, +10 two shields + 40 extra arm +guy).
The guy who I do have a 1+ save on has been taken out of action and never went on a killing spree first (he usually gets no armour save 1/3 of the time he is wounded due to crits).
The hand weapon and shield +1 to armour save special rule also makes a horse and barding obsolete since you can have a 2+ save on foot, and use speed skills (even in buildings and climbing).

Basically any way you do it, a 1+ save is a 300+ gold crown model who can get ogred (200 gold) really easily.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Veyure
Warrior
avatar

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-01-29
Age : 33
Location : Saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:45 pm

If need be the new 40k rules for bs are not bad by my thinking. A bs of 6 or higher gives you a erroll if you roll a 1.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:39 pm

Veyure wrote:
If need be the new 40k rules for bs are not bad by my thinking. A bs of 6 or higher gives you a erroll if you roll a 1.

I like that idea, but, mordheim has all those modifiers. range, cover
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Veyure
Warrior
avatar

Posts : 51
Join date : 2010-01-29
Age : 33
Location : Saskatoon

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:32 pm

Fair enough, so go 1+ then add modifiers, if it's still 1+ give it a reroll success on a 4/5+. house rule obviously, but if we need it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Smackman
Youngblood
avatar

Posts : 40
Join date : 2010-02-12

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:04 pm

I was thinking something along the lines of:

BS 6 gives you 1+ to hit, but instead have an always fails on a 1 rule (not changing it to be 2+) that way if you have BS 6 and you're shooting at someone in cover it's still a 2+. For the Armour I'm thinking the same deal, it's still a 1+ but you have to roll a dice and on a 1 you fail, but if I have str 5 (-2 to an armour save) you're saving on a 3+ still. So the only change is that you HAVE to roll a dice, even if your save is 1+ you still fail on a 1, that way there's a chance to fail, and it doesn't affect the modifiers.

A good example is the Gift of Chaos psychic power makes you take a toughness test or be turned into a demon, if you're toughness 6 you still fail on a 6 though (to give the power some chance of success) and I really see the always fail on a 1 as no different.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
gluvzer
Shadowlord
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2010-01-13

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 am

I totaly agree. I roll of 1 should always=fail.

If you are hitting on a 1+ which could be the case in some instances (in the open and short range) if you roll a 1 you can still hit on a roll or 4+ on a second die roll - Like what Greg suggested, I think should work fine.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Stash
Youngblood


Posts : 36
Join date : 2010-01-28

PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Characteristic tests have their own rule that you always fail on a 6.


Also I would like to state again that we should see if either of the rules as is cause problems first before 'fixing' anything. I dont think they will, especially considering the costs involved.

Well after playing Tom, I think that always failling on a roll of a one is needed for armour saves at least.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: mounts, movement and speed skills   

Back to top Go down
 
mounts, movement and speed skills
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Choose Sword (Glaive) or +3 Speed/Rapidite?
» Berapa top speed siput anda dan berapa RPM pada top speed...
» top speed 250i
» I would like to know which pet are better now.
» Wazza' Muxxu?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WyrdOnes :: Q & A and Rule Discussion-
Jump to: